I have a deep division in my soul, in that I think I would gravitate toward becoming Orthodox, but for the behavior of the various national churches - especially the Romanians - under the CCCP. Nor is this only a recent problem. In their drive toward embracing the mystical interaction of the simple events of a person's life with the farthest reaches of God's intentions, they seem to have ignored even the most basic understandings of justice and public morality. I cannot resolve this, yet I remain deeply moved. Perhaps as a westerner, and especially an American, I have become deeply wrong about the whole point of existence?
Wednesday, January 18, 2023
In The Dark Night
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16 comments:
It's not any of those things that bothers me about Orthodoxy. It's that Orthodoxy is a frozen-in-time museum piece. Nice to visit and enjoy for an afternoon, but I couldn't possibly live there. They do no serious Bible study, and no serious evangelizing. Got a question ? Just look up the answer in the Fathers. Nothing of any importance has happened in Orthodoxy for fifteen centuries. But they do have nice liturgies.
Laughing. I actually can't even make a whole afternoon in a museum, actually, which sucks when the admission price is high or the schedule doesn't permit an easy return. My brain gets full quickly.
And I do experience Orthodoxy in small bits like that, so the warning is noted.
For me two big complaints are the perpetual squabbling over jurisdiction and the union of church and state.
IIRC liturgy is central. In fact, at one point they were deriving conclusions about doctrine from details of the liturgy.
One of the Orthodox churches (other side of town, English-speaking, never got there) did advertise a Bible study with the priest, but I got the impression this was mostly for the seekers.
Since the liturgy includes a lot of the Bible, I guess they think that the layman is getting what he needs without having to study--he's participating. You know, "If religion was a thing that money could buy then the rich would live and the poor would die." Participation is available to rich and poor, gifted and not. Individual Bible study requires that you be able to read.
If everybody in your area is automatically put into your church, there's quite a temptation to ignore evangelism and either be careless or focus on getting Caesar to kindly compel the proper religion. You can see that other places than the Orthodox. IIRC Alaska had Orthodox missionaries, so evangelism isn't a mystery to them.
My no doubt unorthodox take is that the splits in the Church have divided what should be a whole body into churches with different emphases, and that the ideal (not to be achieved by our power) reunites all the churches and emphases into a whole: e.g. liturgy _and_"pentacostal"-style in--I don't know--maybe a rhythm.
AVI, I'm curious about what behavior you're talking about. Is it something you've read about that you could refer me to?
G. Poulin, what kind of things of importance do you think should have happened?
james, those are annoying. But not all branches of Orthodoxy go along with the union of church and state. In addition, the ones in the US, UK, Japan, etc., of course don't.
I do think it's a problem in a place like Russia, though.
Seems the thread's gone cold. I'll just say, having moved from Protestantism to Anglicanism to Orthodoxy, that to me it's the most vibrant, organic form of Christianity I've experienced and leave it there.
I'll have to read up on what happened with the branches of the Church who were behind the Iron Curtain. Thanks for mentioning that, AVI.
What I read (just Pelikan and Ware and ?--I'm _very_ far from expert) said that the ruler was an icon of God, and it's easy to abuse that. I assume that's still the general idea, but with a lot more qualifiers around it in the US branch.
If in its vibrant and organic form you meet the Lord in worship, glory be to God.
As my comment above probably suggests, I'm litugical-friendly. However, I've never attended an Orthodox service--the nearest is in Syraic and the next nearest is in Greek.
Ware is good, but I'm not familiar with Pelikan. I'll look him up.
I've never heard that the ruler is an icon of God, but we do say that all Christians are icons of Christ, and Christ was an icon of God. Icon here simply means image. We are supposed to show Christ to the world through our lives; that's how we are icons of Christ. Christ showed God the Father to the world ("He who has seen me has seen the Father").
If we think of the ruler as an icon of God, then it probably comes from Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." A similarly dangerous scripture that could be abused. As Christians, we are obliged to refuse to obey immoral laws and orders. That's why we have so many martyrs.
It would be difficult to attend services in a completely foreign language. Most American churches have changed to English, regardless of their origin (Greek, Russian, etc.).
The whole goal of liturgy is to meet the Lord in worship. Everything done in liturgy is to provide the best environment for that meeting. If, to do that, you need to pray (silently, of course) through the sermon, do that. Or any time you feel bored or restless, pray. If you need to meditate on an icon you find on the wall, do that. Our hearts and minds are not locked into what's happening "up front".
There are problems in Orthodoxy. I find some branches too nationalistic (though others have no nation, like the Antiochians). I agree that there doesn't seem to be a lot of evangelical spirit, which I think there should be. Some squabbles at the top, between Patriarchs for example, seem like pointless distractions. There is an old Orthodox joke that the Orthodox would rather kiss a Bible than read it, but in my particular branch the study of Scripture has always been emphasized for everyone.
Well, I don't mean to go on about it. I'm happy to talk about it if you have questions or comments, but I don't want to be pushy.
It was the cooperation of the church hierarchies with the communists, yes, and quite specifically in Romania where I know some of the situation on the ground.
It is reasonable to argue that they were often infiltrated and often had little choice. But I don't think that excuse would have been much accepted in the early church, and when we are talking about that major a change in my life, I have pretty high standards for where I will throw in my lot. I am not one who would say "I think I'll be Orthodox for a while" except on a consciously trial basis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Pelikan
I also liked Pelikan's Jesus Through The Centuries, BTW
AVI, I don't know the history there, but I have no sympathy with church leaders who betray the faith. I should read more 20th century history in general, but maybe especially of Orthodoxy.
james, it seems he wrote most of his stuff while a Lutheran. His 2005 book Whose Bible Is It? A History of the Scriptures Through the Ages sounds fascinating. I'll have to check out his work.
This is the one I read:
The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, 5 vols. (1973–1990). Chicago: University of Chicago Press
Volume 2: The Spirit of Eastern Christendom 600–1700
I was collecting materials for a chapter on church history and his work was recommended.
The Table of Contents, which gives the in chronological order the ways the Church has seen Jesus, is interesting
Table of Contents:
The good, the true, the beautiful
The rabbi
The turning point of history
The light of the gentiles
The king of kings
The cosmic Christ
The son of man
The true image
Christ crucified
The monk who rules the world
The bridegroom of the soul
The divine and human model
The universal man
The mirror of the eternal
The prince of peace
The teacher of common sense
The poet of the spirit
The liberator
The man who belongs to the world.
OK, now I'm interested in that one, too. Honestly, a lot of his stuff looks interesting from the list in Wikipedia.
From his Wikipedia biography:
While at Yale, Pelikan won a contest sponsored by Field & Stream magazine for Ed Zern's column "Exit Laughing" to translate the motto of the Madison Avenue Rod, Gun, Bloody Mary & Labrador Retriever Benevolent Association ("Keep your powder, your trout flies and your martinis dry") into Latin. Pelikan's winning entry mentioned the martini first, but Pelikan explained that it seemed no less than fitting to have the apéritif come first. His winning entry:
Semper siccandae sunt: potio
Pulvis, et pelliculatio.
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