Groypers

The is a lot of attention being paid to Rod Dreher's recent discussion of left-right extremism including antisemitism at The Critic," Welcome back to Weimar." This includes a statement that 30 to 40 percent of conservative political and think tank staffers under 30 are followers or fellow travelers of Fuentes. 

Grokipedia has an extended article about Groypers, the decentralised group under Fuentes's America First banner. Whether you read it now or come back to it at the end, I recommend it. 

Meanwhile, look, it's Rod Dreher, Jake. I used to like him, three or four Rod Drehers ago, but he has a long history of enthusiasms, plausibly sounding an alarm but then crashing and burning and embracing some extreme for a year or two. I would describe most of these claims as Based on a True Story, but there are a few here who I know would describe that as too generous.  You are free to weigh in in this space to remind the others of your reasons.  When last I heard of Dreher he was trying to convince us that Hungary was a deeply Catholic country, which faith undergirded its "traditionalism," for which they were unfairly maligned. Maybe based on a true story. But not true.

But, dissident alt right Groypers.  How worried should we be about their numbers and influence?  If you look at Dreher's claim in context it keeps weakening with every return glance.  Conservative staffers under 30.  How many is that? - and that is the group most dedicated to trying to take those jobs to shift things its way. What does "fellow travelers" mean?  We know that in the past lots of real antisemites kept trying to hide behind claiming "no, we're just anti-Zionist," or were "isolationists who thought that Israel received disproportionate attention but didn't claim that the number should be zero." Some of those really meant it even then, though when the chips were down most revealed that they just hated Jews. Yet this is a different generation, farther removed from the Holocaust and so counting it for less. For comparable distance, not many people cared about the Belgian Congo Genocide when I was young. Not quite the same for cultural importance in America, I'll admit.  But it gives an added perspective. At least some of the "fellow travelers" are concerned more about isolationism than anything, because I have heard them. If you look at the amount of military action even antiwar presidents like Clinton, Bush, and Obama have engaged in, you can see why that might be high on their list of expensive things to get rid of. Such people at least give a listen to other versions of isolationism.  Those fellow travelers?

Next, look how much of Dreher's evidence comes from alt-right antisemites in Europe - and even then it's in the form of "I talked to some guys who really know about this, trust me." I wrote about the real story behind "the dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe" over a decade ago. Color me unconvinced. He is also worried that they might undermine Vance.

I'm convinced the Groypers are bad enough.  I'm not convinced they are numerous enough. Startup groups are often good at trying to create an impression of bigger numbers than they warrant. Thousands of listeners to a daily show, you say? These noise and disruption tactics might well give them outsize influence, and such things can build. But how many agree with them on an issue or two, not everything? Dreher retreats to the idea that some of the supporters just want to "burn it all down?"  Meaning what, exactly?  Real burning?  Restarting conservative definition from scratch? Getting rid of some Washington insiders pulling strings? 

They can do real damage, especially if they have wealthy backers behind the scenes who want to use them for their own purposes though they don't agree with the goals.  Think Russian and Chinese support for Western environmental groups, or Middle Eastern countries which hate the Palestinians but find them useful tactically.

So tell what you know and what you guess.  How many are there?