tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post5355871789444307170..comments2024-03-27T03:19:11.216-04:00Comments on Assistant Village Idiot: Sauron Himself Is But An Emissary - Part VIAssistant Village Idiothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01978011985085795099noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-28048407214086371502009-06-29T12:59:35.759-04:002009-06-29T12:59:35.759-04:00I agree with Gringo and karrde.<a href="http://nooilforpacifists.blogspot.com/2009/06/collective-imagination.html" rel="nofollow">I agree</a> with Gringo and karrde.@nooil4pacifistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16688417615117569825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-45065381062350615802009-06-25T20:57:35.218-04:002009-06-25T20:57:35.218-04:00copithorne, my understanding of the conversation i...copithorne, my understanding of the conversation is that we are studying how people come to conclusions about wealth and its creation.<br /><br />It is on-point <i>if</i> we can test the theories and figure out which one will produce better results. <br /><br />(Or, as an alternative, which modes have produced better results in history, both distant and recent.)karrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00205160745963596856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-48504095215288863222009-06-24T13:35:31.960-04:002009-06-24T13:35:31.960-04:00Gringo, I didn't succeed in getting the link l...Gringo, I didn't succeed in getting the link last time. Here it is:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/urc/downloads/africanamerican_economic.pdf" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Median income of Mississippi<br /></a><br /><br /><br />Karrde, I think it is a philosophical question analogous to: do people have free will or are their choices determined?<br /><br />We can come up with perspectives that uphold one side or the other. But it's a question of metaphysics rather than evidence. <br /><br />Different perspectives might be the antidote to different experiences of victimization. If someone is feeling, "it is unfair that I am taxed. I achieved my wealth on my own" I might counter with one view. If someone else is feeling "it is unfair that I haven't succeeded. The deck is stacked against me" I might counter with another view. But the perspective is just medicine, not something that exists in reality.<br /><br />The thing is, that this conversation actually turns out to be irrelevant to the question of how to create public policies which promote prosperity.copithornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-20979570149234013962009-06-23T20:11:29.693-04:002009-06-23T20:11:29.693-04:00Interesting that I cannot find the figure that Cop...Interesting that I cannot find the figure that Copithorne gives us for income in Mississippi where he claims he found it.<br /><br />I provided documentation that poor people in the US have bigger housing than the average European, and no response.Gringonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-81428084617099931282009-06-23T19:50:23.407-04:002009-06-23T19:50:23.407-04:00But...
Statistics is fun, but it can be pursued f...<i>But...</i><br /><br />Statistics is fun, but it can be pursued fully <a href="http://wildekarrde.mee.nu/got_into_a_discussion_on_another_blog" rel="nofollow">elsewhere</a><br /><br />The thing which concerns us is partly the question <i>What is the difference between rich people and poor people?</i><br /><br />Some would argue over whether <i>Something should be done</i> is the best response to whatever differences are present. (It is entirely possible that the problem is intractable...that is, it will not answer easily to any human effort under the present cultural/legal/religious regime. It is even possible for a person to argue that the current situation is not a problem.)<br /><br />Others would argue vociferously over the <i>Thing</i> that must be done. <br /><br />But all those arguments begin from somewhere.<br /><br />When a man is rich, what do you think is the source of his wealth?<br /><br />The choices present seem to be <br />(1) Luck<br />(2) Exploitation<br />(3) Providence<br />(4) Hard Work<br /><br />Each of these encourages (but does not guarantee) particular views of the problems, and the place of government and social pressure in any attempt to change it.<br /><br />They also affect opinions about what a wealthy person should do with their wealth. <br /><br />Similar questions can be asked about wealthy and powerful nations, although the question of natural resources comes into play on the <i>Causative Factors</i> side. <br /><br />I have my opinion on the subject of wealth and poverty, which I shared partly in Part V. I assume that AVI will share his, if he feels the need.<br /><br />Copithorne, what is your idea? How does your diagnosis work out in modern America? Can you point to other times/places in history where your diagnosis-method takes in similar inputs and produces the same output?<br /><br />If so, what was actually done during that time in history, and was it right or wrong?karrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00205160745963596856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-65710905818942295042009-06-23T19:09:45.741-04:002009-06-23T19:09:45.741-04:00I expect that is what happens a lot when you reach...I expect that is what happens a lot when you reach this juncture with your clients, AVI. When you observe that they feel attacked but that they are unable to locate the source of that feeling outside themselves they change the subject to something completely off topic. Do they often throw in a passive attack to cover their tracks?<br /><br />What do you do at that point? Do you have to let them go? Or is there some way you can bring them back to notice what happened just before they changed the subject?copithornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-41341387318543626482009-06-23T18:29:35.548-04:002009-06-23T18:29:35.548-04:00No, no, that's great copithorne. Just hold th...No, no, that's great copithorne. Just hold that idea that Democrats have got a <i>plan</i>, and despite their history, are going to save us money. Let me know how that works out.Assistant Village Idiothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01978011985085795099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-16075905277638591052009-06-23T12:08:22.957-04:002009-06-23T12:08:22.957-04:00We're really getting close to the heart of the...We're really getting close to the heart of the matter now. <br /><br />I'm sure this happens all the time in your work, AVI.<br /><br />You encounter someone who feels blamed or judged or criticized. But when you ask them to illustrate what actions of other people cause these feelings, they can't answer or their speech becomes disorganized. <br /><br />I would expect that you would point out this incongruence to them. And you would feel you were close to something important. But probably only one out of twenty times are they really to take it in and change their perspective on these feelings of being blamed, judged or criticized. Do you have a better way of pointing it out? <br /><br />But here you have a tremendous opportunity to serve your clients by noticing what this experience feels like on the inside and crafting the antidote within yourself. What do you tell your clients in this situation? I can help you if you need it. But I expect you have all the resources you need to carry this investigation to its conclusion.<br /><br />Thanks, Karrde, yes I actually thought that later that I meant MS instead of MI. The best information I got on European median income was from Wikipedia "median income." Median income would be decisive to me. If you, me and Warren Buffet go out to lunch we've got an average income of several billion dollars. Butcopithornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-40710168806887883142009-06-22T23:46:10.903-04:002009-06-22T23:46:10.903-04:00Another point of interest:
AVI wasn't clear w...Another point of interest:<br /><br />AVI wasn't clear whether, when he said "average", he meant "median", "mean", or "mode".<br /><br />(Bonus question: what is "mode" in statistics? If it is different from both median and mean, what might that say about the data?)<br /><br />Median and mean can be vastly different, yet both have been called "average".<br /><br />Usually, "average" means the mathematical "mean". Usually...karrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00205160745963596856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-70371221482775690482009-06-22T20:59:37.848-04:002009-06-22T20:59:37.848-04:00From: Comparing US and EU economies. From the Timb...From: <a href="http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf" rel="nofollow">Comparing US and EU economies.</a> From the Timbro Institute in Sweden.<br /> <br />While Europe may be more equal, it IS also poorer than the US. Housing size is one indicator of this. You pays your money and you takes your chances, takes your choices. Methinks that most Americans would prefer the setup on our side of the pond, instead of being poorer and more equal-and less free- in Europe.<br /><br /><i>Table 3:3 compares dwelling space in various<br />countries. Average total dwelling space in Europe is just under 1,000 sq. ft. In the USA it is 1,875 sq. ft for the average household and 1,200 sq. ft for poor households. Adjusting for size of household, one finds that poor households in the USA have slightly more dwelling space than the average European. The average American household has a home that is 80 per cent larger than its average European counterpart. Europeans, in other words, are<br />more crowded in an American perspective. </i><br /><br />Dwelling space ( square feet) per person<br />Europe, average 395.7<br />USA, poor households 438.6<br />USA, all households 721.2<br /><br />page 24Gringonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-76230050949741146812009-06-22T20:51:38.411-04:002009-06-22T20:51:38.411-04:00This is great! You're flailing, getting rando...This is great! You're flailing, getting random. But it's distracting from the main topic.Assistant Village Idiothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01978011985085795099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-45346731827130703142009-06-22T20:44:00.394-04:002009-06-22T20:44:00.394-04:00copithorne, small point of interest:
According to...copithorne, small point of interest:<br /><br />According to the <a href="http://www.usps.com/ncsc/lookups/abbr_state.txt" rel="nofollow">United States Postal Service</a>, MI is the state known as the Great Lakes State.<br /><br />MS is the state named after the largest river in North America.<br /><br />I assume you're using the postal abbreviation for the state names. I don't know of any other such system.<br /><br />Where did either of you get that median income data from? <br /><br />Remember, when you compare international incomes, you're also doing a currency exchange. While the dollar and the euro have been relatively stable, they have varied from a 1:2 exchange rate to a 2:3 exchange rate in the past couple of years. <br /><br />Now, I'm off to explore the rest of part (V).karrdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00205160745963596856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-33320037235371327272009-06-22T19:46:43.893-04:002009-06-22T19:46:43.893-04:00Can you refer me to a comment in which I assign bl...Can you refer me to a comment in which I assign blame or credit for wealth and poverty?<br /><br />Your thread here is talking about individuals -- how they get wealthy and poor. That's the context in which I wrote that. But any context will do.copithornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-38106577195553765792009-06-22T18:53:32.682-04:002009-06-22T18:53:32.682-04:00copithorne - "I am not interested in assignin...copithorne - "I am not interested in assigning blame or credit for wealth and poverty." That is flat out untrue. You care very much, and it dominates your comments.<br /><br />It appears I have struck home painfully.Assistant Village Idiothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01978011985085795099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19305198.post-55972504308453325672009-06-22T18:42:24.678-04:002009-06-22T18:42:24.678-04:00The following article puts African American median...The following article puts African American median income in MI at $21,000 -- half that of white households in MI.<br /><br />I couldn't find a breakdown for Sweden. But this table shows that European median income is twice that figure:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income<br /><br />And bear in mind, African American households in MI are likely to be larger than households in Europe. So, on a per capita basis it is even worse.<br /><br />There is nothing about your characterization of liberals that I agree with. I am not interested in assigning blame or credit for wealth and poverty. I'm just interested in what we can do to create policies to make for a prosperous country and a healthy society.copithornenoreply@blogger.com