Friday, July 14, 2006

Visiting The Lebanese

Wandering through the Lebanese blogs today, I find much sense, but an uncomfortable amount of raving lunacy. There are commenters scattered throughout the sites who are putting forward the idea that even though Hezbollah started it, if Israel fights back, all of Lebanon must rise up to fight them to defend its honor.


"Oh the terrible police have broken into our house! Our crazy uncle Hezbol who lives on the roof was shooting at them, and we didn't do anything but tell him to be quiet, but that doesn't give the police the right to break into our house! The rest of us are fine, law-abiding people who want to live in peace. Okay, okay, a couple of the cousins are also a little violent, but most of us want to live in peace.

"Or some of us want to live in peace anyway - a lot of us would be angry if you arrested one of those cousins. Come to think of it, we'd all fight the police. But those bastards don't respect peace-loving people like us."

12 comments:

KnightErrant said...

A couple of decades ago a few motorcycle gang-types rented a house in my neighborhood. They parked they hogs in the living room and wrote graffiti on the walls. I would have loved it if the police had gotten rid of them.

The problem is, the Israel Defense Force has not invaded Lebanon as a police force, they are not acting to serve and protect the citizens of Lebanon. In this analogy, the IDF is a rival biker gang. Their attack is an act of testosterone enhanced vengeance.

I can see why the Lebanese are angry. For the people of Lebanon it is like having your town cleaned up by the Hells Angels.

katje said...

Actually, knighterrant, I beg to differ slightly:

Hezb'ullah was always and is still a TERRORIST organisation. Yes, they maintain a lively and prominent presence in Lebanese politics, but that is because they terrorize, threaten, and/or bribe their way into those positions. Interesting how Leftists, who are so quick and willing to ascribe any horror and atrocity to the soldiers and marines in our military (who are accountable not only to military law, but civilian law as well), always choose to look the other way when someone else really is committing atrocities and acts of terror upon the innocent multitudes.

If you had ANY familiarity with the history and tactics (as well as the political and financial provenance, and other allied parties) of the Hezb'ullah, you'd be able to see that most of the people in Lebanon, many of whom are CHRISTIAN, want them out. I do not say this to justify wholesale destruction of Lebanon, but again, if you were keeping up with the actual, factual news, you would also know that what Israel is actually striking at are legitimate military targets: the infrastructure of the public face of Hezb'ullah in Lebanon, the same as they they are striking at the public offices and infrastructure of Hamas (another TERRORIST organisation) in Gaza.

Another thing: if you are so politically naive as to think this has merely to do with rescuing one (or even 3) Israeli soldier(s), then you really need to step back and take off the anti-Zionist blinders and really look at the situation.

Your beloved "freedom fighters" (read: TERRORISTS, who have been kidnapping and killing innocent people at random for the last 25+ years) generally do run and hide, in cowardly fashion, behind women and children. These would be the same women and children whom they beat and occasionally still choke or stone to death (and if you think honour killings don't happen in the Fertile Crescent - do your research!). The terrorists know that women and children make great PR, so they win both ways - they have cover, and they can get the rest of the world on their side when the Israeli's kill women and children when hitting the terrorists.

Yes, the Israeli's have committed their own atrocities, you'll say - and I'll agree, wholeheartedly. And the people who did it need to be condemned and surrendered up for it, to stand trial for war crimes. Just because one side does something wrong does not justify the other in continuing the idiocy by perpetuating the same actions (as any mother of small children can easily tell you - no one ever stops a fight by letting Sally clobber Johny over the head with the toy he's trying to take from her, and then letting him do the same to her once he gets the toy. All you get is escalation).

And you can't blame the situation on the Zionists, Jews, WWII, the UK, or the US, because the fighting and infighting and killing (and atrocities) have been going on in the region for a couple of thousand years. What we are seeing now is tribal warfare gone modern, technological, and international.

I won't argue with you that, in the short term at least, the destruction of Hezb'ullah (which I see coming, and which I also see as the real reason for this war, along with the destruction of Hamas) will seem pretty much on par with a destruction of much of Lebanon, as I suspect that they won't go easily. It is my opinion that when things start looking bad, you will start to see a ramp-up in atrocities toward the Lebanese (NOT by Israeli troops, mind you - as I said, many of the Lebanese are Christian and don't have the same issues with Israel as the other ME countries do) by the Hezb'ullah, as they make a last-ditch attempt to consolidate or retain what hold they can over the Lebanese. Especially if they view themselves as being expediently abandonned by Iran or Syria for being too much of a political hot potato (read: if they're losing - Arabs won't back an underdog or a loser). And also look to many landmarks, historical sites and important public facilities to be destroyed as well. That's just my opinion as a former analyst, but let's just wait and see, shall we?..

katje said...

Oh, and also:

Don't think that just because you're seeing many posters posting bad things, that there aren't many people sending letters and posting things to the effect that they'll never forgive Israel if they don't go all the way and get rid of Hezb'ullah once and for all.

just a reminder :)

Assistant Village Idiot said...

Good to know. I suppose it is more likely hotheads like me who go on blogs to comment, so I should expect that.

sykadilya said...

Well, I'm sorry to break this piece of news to you, but the IOF did target civilians in Lebanon. The senario you brought, Assistant Village Idiot, should be in reality "We, the relatives of uncle H, have also been targeted by the IOF - the reason why we should support our uncle's resistance. WE ARE NOT FINE."
Does that tell you anything, Katje? Does "=" fit in there between Terrorist and IDF?
Salaam

kufrdog said...

I don't think the term "civilian" has any meaning in relation to the sort of war that's being conducted. HAMAS and Hizballah kill anyone they consider not of their lot, and consider all of their own as fighters. I don't see a lot of Israeli toddlers decked out in suicide belts. The one thing these hostile sunni and shia seem to agree on is that all not subordinate to them should convert or die. They've dug their own grave, but insist on taking others with them. If every Israeli moved to Mars today they'd be fighting over the empty ruins for the right to kill one another in the name of god. A pox on both their houses. There are a billion muslims ,300 million of which are Arab. There's what, eleven million jews, six million of which live in the levant? And how much of a resource base to these muslims have? They have everything, but choose to throw it away on blood and posturing. If Israel did not exist, the islamic world would have to invent it to provide them with the Divine Excuse for the failures. It wasn't the crusades, it wasn't imperialism--they had that under the Caliphate with an islamic face. The trouble with their culture isn't the west, it's their reaction to it. We learned from our mistakes, where the islamic world, confident that they got the final word on how reality should be arranged, strut and pose like the adolescent rage you see on those fool kids with the RPGs--god is on my side, so why to the kufrs have all the cool stuff? Why, indeed. Pax, to your salaam.

katje said...

Pax right back to you, Sykadilya, wa rahmat Allah wa barakat-hu.

I really wish you could have salaam, but I fear you never will, as long as your people choose rhetoric over common sense, and terrorism over life. Whether you like it or not, Israel is not going to go away. That is a simple statement of fact that the entire Arab world must learn to accept and move on from.

When the Palestinians gained Gaza, your people should have set about making it the best area they could: establishing a strong infrastructure and doing their utmost to build up their people through education and the application of modern technology in ways that would benefit your people. Build a country, in short. Already the Palestinians had the world on their side, and had they shown the least attempt (or even the appearance of a bona fide attempt) any number of international aid $ could have been theirs for the asking, for the further improvement of facilities, homes, schools, office buildings, factories and so on. Your people could have made your tiny area a Heaven on Earth, and a strong base from which to expand their holdings and gain further land back, from which to rebuild the Palestine your people envision.

Instead, the Palestinian people chose to elect a terrorist body as their government, so now the land is a sh*thole, full of roving and idle young men of little to no education who seem to feel that life offers them nothing better than the opportunity to posture with a gun, yell anti-Israel or anti-US sentiments, and either shoot at Israel or just shoot randomly into the air. Is good, honest work beneath you? Even if it's what will bring you all the things you want?

I feel greatly for the suffering of your people. Nobody (and I do mean NOBODY) should have to die as they did (and are still), especially within close range of modern medical care, and especially knowing the amazing power of that medical care to heal the sick and injured. But before everyone starts blaming the IDF, take a good long look at your own people, and ask yourself why they did something so stupid as to give the IDF cassus belli. The idiots who kidnapped and killed the soldiers and settler have brought this on your people, and all of Palestine, especially those stupid fools with no more brains than a goat, must look to yourselves for a big share in this Blame Game. But equally unfortunately, the Palestinians' beloved terrorists have poisoned the well by using seemingly sick and wounded people to infiltrate medical aid stations for the purposes of murder and mayhem, so now even legitimate medical emergencies are suspect.

Is this really what your people wanted when they envisioned self-autonomy? And please, how can anybody really believe that your people care what happens to the Lebanese - when the only things your people demonstrate any visible emotion for are the hurting and destruction of Israel, and their own immediate self-interest?

Come out and decide to be a people and think for yourselves. Forget about all the Arab rhetoric that has been stirring you against Israel all these years (to keep you from thinking about settling in other Arab countries). Think about whether all the chaos and death and destruction is going to be worth it. Stop letting terrorist organisations speak for you; they have their own agendas which do not have Palestinian welfare chief among them. They are really bullies who, deep down, are afraid that someone will really see them for the impotent bastards they are: capable only of destroying, never building or helping or fixing. Maybe if Hamas and Hezb'ullah stopped hiding behind their women and children, and took off their little scarves to show their faces like real men, maybe then we might be able to treat them a little more seriously, and not just as the filthy cockroaches we know them to be... But on second thought, nah, I don't think so.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

The IOF did not target civilians, though civilians have been hit, more is the pity.

sykadilya, you give away more of your thought than you wish. The phrase "We are not fine." Thoughts of this type are repeated time and again among Israel's enemies. We suffer, therefore it is someone else's fault. We suffer, therefore someone else should suffer to know how we feel. The Israelis do not CARE, the Americans do not CARE. Because we suffer, we are right.

An experiment: Get a copy of Israeli schoolbooks, see what they teach about you to their children. Then look at what you teach your children about them.

For comparison, Egyptian or Saudi textbooks would also be useful, if you can find them.

sykadilya said...

Katje, I'm really impressed with the much you had to write me.
Assistant Village Idiot, I don't believe in fault. I do not do blame. In my comments - and give-away thoughts - I was talking about a reality that obviously and sadly both you and Katje cannot see. I don't blame you for that. I just expect you to try and invistigate more when you hear a piece of news. Be curious as to find truth.
Check for example;
Democracy Now! and Information Clearing House
Katje, concerning what Palestinians "should" have done in Gaza, read this article on the Bethlehem Bloggers: Voices from the Bethlehem Ghetto.
Salaam

Assistant Village Idiot said...

We do read both sides. I have heard the Palestinian arguments many times. I don't find them convincing. As to not blaming, your original comment bears a sharp resemblance to it.

katje said...

Trust me Sykadilya,
Over here, we get very little except the anti-Israeli point of view (it's our liberals, and the MSM, you see). Because we know that there is another side to the story, you see a lot of blogging reaffirming that.

My tax dollars, money I've earned with the sweat of my brow (and yes, I do mean sweat -at times at least) has gone toward the millions and millions of dollars in aid the US has been paying out to pretty much everyone in the Middle East for the last thirty plus years, so if you think I don't/haven't been following what's going on, or that I don't feel I have a dog in this fight, you're mistaken.

ben said...

It's a curious thing.

We've all seen so much agony from the Lebanese.

Yes, it's horrible, terrible stuff.

So will the Lebanese say "we hate war, here are your soldiers back, we will disband Hezbollah and allow no more attacks over your border, let's have a peace treaty instead"? Not yet. Apparently the war isn't THAT awful. It's still way better than peace with those awful Israelis.

Remember, Lebanese: The Israelis are choosing to cause hundreds of deaths to rescue two men and secure their northern border, you are willing to ACCEPT hundreds of deaths to detain two men and threaten their northern border. This is a tango for two.

Freedom for Lebanon: Death to Hezbollah.